Post-Tribulation Question:
Hi Steve… is the following true:
Christians who follow the Posttribulation rapture doctrine, argue that the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet mentioned in I Corinthians 15:52,[21] and that there is a strong correlation between the events mentioned in Isaiah 27:13,[22] Matthew 24:29-31,[23] and I Thessalonians 4:16.[24] These parallels are used to support the doctrine of the rapture occurring after the
tribulation. Therefore, Posttribulationists see the rapture happening
during the seventh trumpet. The nature of the 7th trumpet shows that
"time is no more, and that the mystery of God is finished, Rev. 10:6,7.
At the 7th trumpet, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore,[25] He has taken His great power and reigned,[26] and He rewards the righteous, and judges the wicked.[27] Both
Jesus and Paul declare that when Jesus comes, His reward is with Him,
and He rewards everyone according to their works, Rev. 22:12, 2 Tim 4:1.
Long Answer:
1 Corinthians 15:50-58 King James Version (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: …
Q: If the “Seventh Trump” is the “Last Trump”, when was the “First Trump” sounded, and by whom was it sounded.
A:
The “First Trump” sounded at Mount Sinai, when the Voice of the Father,
spoke into the hearing of all the children of Israel, His “Ten
Commandments”. During this event, which took place 50 days after the
children of Israel departed Egypt, caused the planetary heaven to shake,
as well as the earth to shake. Paul tells us that this is to take
place again, “once more”, NOT twice more, but “once more” only, when God
again shakes the second heaven, as well as the earth (Hebrews 12:26),
as confirmed in so many passages, including Revelation 6:12-17, Matthew
24:27-31, Revelation 12:6 (the rapture of the 5 wise virgins, as seen
in Matthew 25:1-12 Wycliffe Bible translation), Revelation 12:13-14, the
removal of all Israel, from the lands of their enemies, by means of the
two wings of a great eagle. These members of the diaspora, are
translated back to the land of Israel, in their mortal bodies. So great
is this event, that they no longer speak of the crossing of the Red Sea
(see also Jeremiah 16:14-15, and Ezekiel 39:24-29 Wycliffe Bible translation).
Jeremiah 16:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 Therefore,
behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said,
The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land
of Egypt;
15 But,
The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land
of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I
will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Hebrews 12:18-29 King James Version (KJV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount (called Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Deuteronomy 4:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 Specially
the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the
Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them
hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they
shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And
ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with
fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick
darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For
they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a
beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a
dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion (a prophecy to be fulfilled in Revelation chapter 14), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn (firstfruits), which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel (whom Cain slew).
25 See
that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who
refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we
turn away from him that speaketh from heaven (as “the sound of a trumpet”):
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Revelation 6:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Q: When does this take place?
A: Immediately after the tribulation of those days (see also Hosea 6:2), yet before the great and terrible day of the Lord begins.
Matthew 24:29 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (two millennial days after the death of Jesus)
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and
the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken:
Joel 2:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
Q: So which is it, “before” or “after” the tribulation?
A:
Both, for this event comes “before” the great and terrible day of the
Lord, and “Immediately after the tribulation of those days”, following
the two millennial days given us in Hosea 6:2, they being exactly 2,000
years to the day and hour.
Joel 3:9-16 King James Version (KJV)
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, (the Gog, Magog war, seen in Ezekiel chapters 38-39) wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow (Revelation 14:14-20); for their wickedness is great.
Revelation 14:14-20 King James Version
14 And
I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like
unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a
sharp sickle.
15 And
another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him
that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is
come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And
another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and
cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust
in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth;
for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And
the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of
the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And
the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the
winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and
six hundred furlongs.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
13 And (it looked as if) the stars of heaven fell unto the earth (a pole shift, as in Isaiah 24:1), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Isaiah 24:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold,
the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it
upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken (meaning heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away: Matthew 24:35), as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore
we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
…for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So
when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore,
my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in
the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in
vain in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ, to be reunited with their newly “changed” bodies).
17 Then we (the wise virgins seen in Matthew 25:1-12 Wycliffe Bible translation)
which are alive and remain (after the event of Revelation 12:5, &
Hebrews 9:28 shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Q: Why should this be a comfort to these believers?
A: Because they were among those seen in Revelation 12:6, who were “left behind” / those “which are alive and remain”…
Isaiah 27:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, …
Q: What day is this verse speaking of?
A:
This verse must be understood in the context of the entire chapter, NOT
just this singular verse, though I have no problem knowing where this
verse fits on God’s timeline.
…that the great trumpet shall be blown, …
Q: When does the great trump sound?
A: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
…and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria (Syria), …
Q: Where do we see this event in Scripture?
A: Isaiah chapter 17
Isaiah 17 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
1 The burden of Damascus (the oldest city upon the earth which has never ceased to be a city). Lo! Damascus shall fail to be a city (cease to be a city), and it shall be as an heap of stones in falling.
Q:
Why would Damascus be made to be as the Second Temple as it became in
AD 70, when “not one stone was left upon another, that was not torn
down”?
A: God
takes vengeance upon Assyria. It was the Syrian mercenary soldiers,
part of the army led by Prince Titus of Rome, that set fire to the
Temple on the 9th day of Av, 3830 AM. On the 11th of Av, the stones had
become cool enough to remove, allowing them to collect all the gold
which had melted down between the stones during the fire.
Mark 13:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 And
as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him,
Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And
Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there
shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Isaiah 17 Wycliffe Bible (WYC) continued…
2 The forsaken cities of Aroer shall be to flocks; and they shall rest there, and none shall be that shall make afeared. 3 And help shall cease from Ephraim (the United State stops assisting altogether), and a realm from Damascus; and the remnants of Syria shall be as the glory of the sons of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.
Q: What was the “glory of the sons of Israel”?
A: The Second Temple was the “glory of the sons of Israel”, which became “as an heap of stones in falling.”
4 And it shall be, in that day, …
Q: What day is this?
A:
Ezekiel chapters 27-31; 38-39, Joel chapters 2-3, Revelation 6:12-17,
Isaiah 17:14, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Genesis 3:15, the death of the
Antichrist, two millennial days after the death of the Lord Jesus, on
the same exact day, 2,000 years apart.
…the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall fade.
Much like that which happened during the Yom Kippur War of 1973 (Israel was being defeated until October 16th,
1973, then the battle changed in favour of Israel), so also shall
Israel take military losses, until the Lord appears with the Archangel
Michael, leading the army of God (see also Daniel 12:1-3).
Daniel 12:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 And
at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth
for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and
at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be
found written in the book.
Q: When does this event take place?
A: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ, to be reunited with their newly “changed” bodies).
17 Then we (the wise virgins seen in Matthew 25:1-12 Wycliffe Bible translation) which are alive and remain (after the event of Revelation 12:5, & Hebrews 9:28) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Daniel 12:1-3 King James Version (KJV) continued…
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
2 Corinthians 5:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For we (that have believed upon the name of the Lord)
must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may
receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done,
whether it be good (seen as gold and silver) or bad (wood, hay, and stubble).
3 And
they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and
they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Isaiah 17 Wycliffe Bible (WYC) continued…
5 And it shall be as (one) gathering together that that is left (behind / those alive in Christ and remaineth unto his coming) in harvest, and his arm shall gather ears of corn, and it shall be as (one) seeking ears of corn in the valley of Rephaim.
Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 And
I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an
hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in
their foreheads.
Q: When did these have the Father’s name written upon their foreheads, and who place the name of God upon them?
A: The answer can be found in Revelation 7:1-9
Revelation 7:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
1 And
after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of
the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not
blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel (in this case, the Lord Jesus Christ) ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God (the Holy Spirit): and he cried (shouted his command) with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying (commanding that they), Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
NOTE:
These are the Firstfruits “wave offering” of the “wheat harvest”,
presented by the “Bride of Christ” to the Father, upon her entry into
Heaven, at the time of Christ’s second “appearing”, as seen in Hebrews
9:28.
Q: Who are the “we” in verse 3?
A:
They that place the Seal of God upon the 144, 000, are none other than
Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Bride of Christ has been sealed upon
the earth, before being raptured. The 144,000 are sealed in Heaven,
after being raptured into Heaven.
Revelation 7:1-9 King James Version (KJV) continued…
4 And
I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an
hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of
Israel.
5 Of
the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben
were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve
thousand.
6 Of
the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were
sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of
the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi
were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve
thousand.
8 Of
the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed
twelve thousand.
9 After this…
Q: How long after the first rapture event does the following take place?
A:
The baptism of Jesus was symbolic of the “change” that takes place in
the physical and spiritual life of the new believer. He accepts the
death and burial of his “old man”, and his new birth in Christ, as a new
creation. The date of Jesus’ baptism was the 6th of Sivan, 3787. This
was the rehearsal of the coming event, when those that have died to the
“flesh” of the “old man”, shall he appear the second time, to “The
Bride of Christ”, of whom Mary Magdalene was the type and shadow.
These, righteous among men, shall be translated into Heaven, without
experiencing human death, just as Enoch walked with God, and God
“raptured” him into Heaven, never to experience human death. These two
events are separated by two millennial days, 2,000 years to the day (6th
of Sivan, 3787 plus 2,000 years, equals 6th of Sivan, 5787 / June 11th,
2027. This day begins at sunset, 10th of June. On June 10th, 1967, the Six-Day War ended as Israel and Syria agreed to observe a United Nations-mediated cease-fire.
… I beheld (the arrival of the Revelation 12:6 “woman”, into Heaven, where she shall be fed and cared for by God Himself), and, lo, (these were)
a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before
the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …
Q: Who are these peoples, standing before the throne of God, clothed in white, waving palm branches?
A: These are all those, the “left behind” churches, that had remained alive until the coming of the Lord Jesus, during the “Passover Week” / the “Passion Week”, post 2,000 years. Included among this number, are all those risen from the dead, in their immortal, incorruptible new bodies.
Q:
How can we know when this takes place? Does the Bible give us a
specific clue as to the timing of this great sight in Heaven, which John
sees.
A:
The answer can be seen as a past event, which took place as Jesus
entered the old city of Jerusalem, on “Palm Saturday” (NOT PALM SUNDAY),
10th of Nisan, 3790 AM / March 30th, AD 30. His followers were
rejoicing at the coming of their King, the Lord Jesus. Therefore they
spread out their clothing before him, and waved palm branches, as they
all shouted, Hosanna to the King.
There
is however another group of believers, who we are to know who they
are. They too have come out of great tribulation, in an earlier event.
We see them in Revelation 7:13-17.
Revelation 7:13-17 King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered (with a redundant question, concerning another group of believers), saying unto me (as though I should know the answer to his question), What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, (being that you ask a redundant question, then it is that) thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, …
Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Because (these have) kept the word of (the Lord’’s) patience, (He) also (hath kept them out) from the hour of temptation, which (did come) upon all the world, (so) to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 14:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (the washing / cleansing of the blood of Jesus from all sin).
…and (these) have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For
the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall
lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all
tears from their eyes.
John 12:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 (So it was, that his followers),
took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried,
Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the
Lord.
Zechariah 9:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Rejoice
greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold,
thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and
riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
…and (the branches of) palms (were) in their hands;
Revelation 14 King James Version continued…
2 And
I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the
voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with
their harps:
3 And they (the 144,000 Israelites)
sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four
beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred
and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These
are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These
are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth (he goeth to the old city of Jerusalem, according to the Law). These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And
I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting
gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,
and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Q: What did Jesus have to say to his disciples about the timing of this event?
A: In answer to the question posed by his disciples, Jesus answered the following:
Matthew 24:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of the age, not the end of the world) come.
Matthew 24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple, 2 and
Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you,
There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be
thrown down.'
3 And
when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near
to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray, 5 for many (266 Popes of Rome) shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ
(the RCC Vicar of Christ on earth, one who claims to stand in the place
of Jesus Christ and possess His absolute authority in the church), and they shall lead many astray,
